Politically Incorrect
August 9, 2001

Guests on this program were:
Maggie Gallagher
John Lydon
Kevin Griffin
John Cameron Mitchell

Screen captures from this show are available in the Images section

Ladies and gentlemen, the star of "Politically Incorrect" --
Bill Maher!
[ Cheers and applause ]

Bill: How you doing? Nice to see you.
All right, let's meet our panel.
She is the director of the marriage program at the Institute for American Values --
my old job --

[ Laughter ]

And the author of "The Case for Marriage," our friend Maggie Gallagher.
Maggie?
[ Applause ]

Hey, how are you? Thank you for coming, as always.
He is the driving force behind the band Better Than Ezra.
Their new cd is "Closer." I listened to this today.
This is really good stuff.
You guys have hit your stride.
In stores everywhere.
Kevin Griffin, ladies and gentlemen.

[ Applause ]

Yes, you have.

Kevin: Good to see you.

Bill: Very good.
Hedwig is here.
I tell you, I have been a fan.
Have you ever seen "Hedwig"?

Kevin: I have.

Bill: Hedwig, Maggie? Oh, my gosh.

[ Scattered cheers ]

I know, it's not a mainstream thing, but "Hedwig," I gotta say --
Roger Daltrey's on the show tomorrow, "Tommy," the great rock opera, but this, no backseat to "Tommy," "Hedwig" is a movie now.
And he is the talented writer/director and star of the big-screen version of it.
Ladies and gentlemen, whether you like it or not, John Cameron Mitchell is right here.

[ Applause ]

How are you? A pleasure.
You know I'm a big fan.
And he is a pioneer of punk and a rock archaeologist, whatever that is, the ever-reserved John Lydon, ladies and gentlemen.

[ Applause ]

John: Hi, Bill.

Bill: Mr. Rotten, how are you?

John: I'm doing as usual.

Bill: Okay, all right.
Maggie, I don't have your book here today.

Maggie: Oh, we stopped selling that thing.

Bill: Okay.

[ Scattered laughter ]

What is you title there? You're the head of the what happens?

Maggie: Actually, I'm now an affiliate scholar at the Institute for American Values.

Bill: The institute for what?

Maggie: American Values.

Bill: American Values.
Because you're the person who argues, and so eloquently, for marriage.
And I'm not against marriage.

Kevin: Yes, you are.

[ Laughter ]

Bill: I'm just --

Kevin: Yes, you are.

Bill: For myself.
But I mean, but it works for some people.
Okay.

Maggie: Don't close the door.
Maybe you'll meet the right girl.

Bill: You're right, exactly.

John: And don't institutionalize it, either.
You put down rules and regulations for everyone, and that is not right.

Maggie: I don't put down rules and regulations.

John: Marriage, that's a personal choice issue.

Maggie: Right, nobody should be forced to get married, that's true.
Not even Bill.
But I do think that if the right girl comes along it's a very good thing.

John: That's none of your business.

[ Laughter ]

Bill: For some of us it's not about the right girl, it's about the right institution.
Anyway, the reason I brought this up --

Maggie: What is the right institution for you, Bill?

Bill: Divorce.
That's what I was bringing up.
You know that people are having around the country now divorce ceremonies.
I think this is a wonderful thing --

[ Maggie laughing derisively ]

Bill: And I knew this would make your head explode.
And that's why I'm bringing it up.

John: The Irish celebrate death --
wakes, right? I'm a Paddy.
I celebrated my mother's death.
So why not a divorce?

Bill: We celebrate everything, every transition in life, with a videotape.
You know, whether it's a bar mitzvah, a birth, a wedding.
And now people are doing it, they're having these divorce ceremonies.
I think it's great.
They pay tribute to the years they had together.
And they say, basically, "We're gonna leave as friends." Instead of having a fistfight in the courthouse parking lot, they're having a divorce ceremony.

John Cameron: Good idea.

John: So long as they're happy that's fine.
But to fake happiness, that would be a rather miserable state of affairs.
Why not be angry if you really are? Anger is an energy.

[ Applause ]

Bill: I agree.
I agree.

Maggie: Two or three people are having divorce ceremonies, and half of them are writing books to profit from it.
The reality is that when you divorce someone --

John: You're profiting off marriage.

Maggie: I wish.

John: It's out of print.

Maggie: If you divorce someone, you're saying, "I don't love you anymore, I'm not gonna be responsible for any more, you're not part of my family anymore."

Bill: Exactly.

John Cameron: True.

Maggie: There's not a very nice way to do that.
And I think it's fine if you want to do it, it's not a problem.
But the theory that if we just have these ceremonies that somehow this thing of having the person who promised to love you "Until death do us part" come and say, "I'm sorry, I've changed my mind."

Kevin: I don't necessarily agree with you, Maggie, but the notion of a ceremony where people are gonna just slap each other on the back and go their separate ways is kind of discounting basic human emotion.
There's too much anger involved.

John Cameron: You're also kind of speaking for yourself.

Bill: Right.

John: Marriage in America is in a very frivolous state of affairs anyway.
That's what E! entertainment and "Extra" and all those programs consistently tell us.

John Cameron: Isn't a wedding really more for the family often? And for the friends?

Bill: The woman.
What man ever wanted to go through that whole thing?

Kevin: Here we go.

John Cameron: I have friends that --
I'm gay, and I have a lot friends who want to get married who are both guys, and they want the ritual or at least --

John: But those are guys wanting to be women, so.

Kevin: That's not true.

Maggie: No man who marries a woman wants a wedding.

John Cameron: I'm gonna tell him you said that.

Bill: Wait a second.
Let's get real here.
What he said is so not true? Gays don't want to be women?

John Cameron: What are you talking --

[ Laughter ]

Bill: Some of them.

John Cameron: What kind of a generalization is that?

Bill: You've been dressing up as a woman for every night of your life for the last three years.

John Cameron: I know, I don't want to be a woman.
I like dressing up as a woman sometimes.
But you know that most sex changes are actually straight people?

Bill: Wait a second.

John Cameron: Yeah.

John: They are after the operation.

[ Laughter ]

John Cameron: No, they're lesbians.
Ever since I did "Hedwig" I've met a lot of sex changes.
I don't want to be a sex change or anything.
I found out --
I didn't know that, like you know how they say the Ed Wood syndrome, like most guys who are transvestites are straight just 'cause there's more straight people? And the same percentage of straight and gay want to dress up in the opposite sex.
Actually, more people who want to change their sex --
gender dysphoria, which is just a way of, you know, feeling like you're the other sex, born in the wrong body --
most sex changes are straight people.
So that I met a lot of guys who become lesbians, in effect.

[ Light laughter ]

Kevin: Most of my guy friends consider themselves lesbians.

Bill: I've been trying to meet people like that.

[ Laughter ]

John Cameron: They're always straight.
They're straight, and then all they want to do is change their sex, but they still like women.

Maggie: They want to be a woman and like women.

John Cameron: Exactly.

John: Only in America.

John Cameron: They want to be a lesbian.

Maggie: Only in America.

John: There's your family values.

[ Laughter ]

Bill: I'd love to be trapped inside a lesbian's body.

John: I've done it several times.

Bill: I bet you have.

John: It's dark.
It's terrible.

Bill: Getting back to the thread we were getting to.
Oh, Marriage.
Women want the wedding ceremony.
Every guy was like, "Oh, my God, we're going through this, it takes months."

John Cameron: And sure, a lot of gay guys have the feminine energy, and they want the ritual and they want the friends to accept their union.

Bill: Gay guys have feminine energy, could you agree to that, sir?

John: Yeah.

John Cameron: A lot of them do, whatever.

Bill: Okay, this is not a great bombshell of news we're revealing here.

John Cameron: Exactly.
But I'm talking about the ritual itself.

Maggie: I noticed something.
Ever since we embarked on this path towards gender androgyny I hear more and more tales of straight guys who, like, want to help pick out the China pattern.
Don't you think that's really kind of odd?

Kevin: I'm getting married.

Bill: No, you're getting married?

Maggie: Congratulations.

Bill: When?
[ Applause ]

Maggie: A brave man.

Bill: I didn't see any men applaud, I really didn't.

Kevin: I must admit that, you know, my fiancee is definitely more into the logistics.
But I've been doing it.
We got a K.C. & the Sunshine cover band playing.

Bill: Really.

Kevin: That's my job, and I'm kind of down with that.
And we're gonna have a good time.
It's gonna be this kind of little cajun --

Bill: You're just trying to stay out of the doghouse like every man.

Kevin: No, no.

John: Yes.

Bill: Yes, you are.
You just don't want to piss her off.

Kevin: Bill, there's only so many nights you can hang out in South Beach in the VIP room.

John Cameron: Who are you speaking of?

Kevin: I don't know.

Maggie: There's a difference.
Guys want to get married, but he's saying guys don't really care about the wedding.

Bill: No.

Maggie: That's a different thing.

Bill: Right.

Maggie: A lot of guys want to get married, right? You gotta admit that.

Bill: No.
I don't agree with that either.

[ Laughter ]

Not a lot of guys want to get married.

Maggie: How come so many do? For every woman who marries there's a man.

Bill: Because it's their best option.

Maggie: It's their best option.

Bill: Men are only as loyal as their options.
If they had options they wouldn't.

John: Not all of us.
I've been committed for 22 years to a woman I extremely love.

Bill: You've been committed way before that.

John: For different reasons in different subjects.
But let's focus.
That's me and my personal choice.
And I would not dictate that for everyone, because we are not all the same, and we should not be, otherwise life would be incredibly tedious and dull.

John Cameron: Did you consider getting married?

John: I do not advocate any rules or regulations or stipulations whatsoever for anyone on anything.

Bill: We got to take a break.
We'll be right back.

[ Applause ]

President Bush addressed the nation tonight, wow, pledging limited support for Federally funded stem cell research, and thus angering conservatives who say these embryos are really just very young human beings.
And they may be right, 'cause today Gary Condit asked one out.

[ Laughter ]

Bill: Well last week, Germany became the latest place on Earth to legalize same-sex marriages.
But they forgot one thing.
They have no word for it.
Well today they asked the German people to come up with a word, because there's no German word for a gay marriage.
Although, when two lesbians over there get a place together it is called a "Munch-hausen."
[ Laughter ]


[ Applause ]

All right, I've been waiting for a show with a bunch of musicians here.
I want to do this.
There was an article in the paper about --
oh, it's got to be a month ago now --
about Gil Scott-Heron.
Anybody know who that is?
[ Scattered applause ]

People call him the grandfather of rap.
He's a great jazz musician.
I really don't listen to him, but I've always known who he was.
Okay, apparently he likes crack a lot.

[ Light laughter ]

So the people around him are trying to basically shut down his life.

John: Yeah, again, taking away his personal decisions.
It's his own plight, his own destiny.

[ Maggie laughing ]

He's on drugs.

Bill: People laugh, that bothers me.

Maggie: No, people don't laugh, I'm the only one laughing.

Bill: No, they're laughing.

John: It's not for you to dictate whether you should or should not indulge himself.

Maggie: I'm not dictating anything.
This conversation on television.
The reason I'm laughing is that if you've ever had anyone close to you who's had a substance abuse or a drug abuse problem, I mean it's just terrible for the people who actually love this man --

John: Tough tits, but it's none of your damn business, it's their personal choice.

[ Applause ]

Maggie: No, that's ridiculous.
You can't make somebody stop, but it is --
if you love someone, and they're destroying themselves, it is your business.

John: Heartbreaking, but a reality of life.

Maggie: It is your business --
well yeah, there's not much you can do, truthfully, if they're intent on it.

John: It's his life, his own life.
If he decides to be irresponsible to other people around him, you cannot change it, that's his decision.
Leave well alone.

Maggie: You know what? You can gripe a lot, and you can point it out, and you can do what you can to have --

John: Be a bitch, yeah.

Maggie: Yeah, you can.

John: That's not help.

Bill: Wait a second.

Maggie: I admire his girlfriend --

Bill: He's functioning.
He's a functioning crackhead.

[ Laughter ]

He does his gigs.
He's a jazz musician, okay? There's a little bit of a history with drugs and jazz musicians.
They're not quite like other people, okay?

Maggie: Right, that's why I think the music fans don't care.

Bill: Don't you have to grade a little bit on the curve?

Maggie: Well I don't care.
People who listen to music don't care.
I'm just saying that people actually love him as a human being and care about him.

Bill: Okay, well that's the debate, is how do you really love him.
He would say, "Leave me alone.
This is the way I want to live.
You're right, my teeth aren't that good, I miss a gig every once and a while --
"

John Cameron: But he's saying he's not a crackhead, he's saying he's not an active addict at this time.

Bill: He's saying that just to get the judge off his case.

John: My teeth aren't that good, and I miss a gig every once in a while, and I don't do crack, so --

John Cameron: But, John, what would you have done --
I mean, if there was a way to stop sid --

John: You cannot stop people's personal choices.
You just have to accept that is part of their personality.

John Cameron: But can I ask you, though --
?

Bill: Let him ask a que --

Kevin: For God's sake.

[ Laughter ]

John Cameron: Probably the person that I love most in my life was a coke addict, an alcoholic, and he was in a band that I worked with, and he had to get kicked out of the band, he had to get kicked out of his apartment and out of his job for him to do something about it.
If you actually, possibly, could have got all the club owners in the world to say, "Sid vicious can never play again --
"

John: No, wouldn't have done it.

John Cameron: If you could have --

John: No, no.
Because that would be absolutely intolerant of me.
My attitude was, "Bye-bye, Sid.
If that's going to be part of you, you ain't workin' with me." But I never interfered in his drug habit.
I couldn't.
It's not my personal business.
It's not my area to indulge in.

Kevin: You're also assuming that club owners have some type of moral imperative in being in the business.

John: My God, what a life we would lead.
Just like, "You can't do that, we disagree."

Kevin: We all know that club owners are right above primordial ooze.

[ Laughter ]

I can't see, like at the annual caucus of club owners in vegas, right after they're talking about stem-cell research, they talk about Gil Heron-Scott.
"What can we do?"

Bill: You're right.
And the club where he plays a lot in New York, the club owner said "I didn't realize that playing God was something I was supposed to do." And I kind of agree with that.

John Cameron: I think if it's possible to do what you can to help someone hit their bottom, and they're about to kill themselves, and you feel that strongly about 'em, you gotta do what you can --
you can't make them stop, but you can create an environment where they realize they're --

John: So are fat people, let's get rid of them then, shall we? Let's like cancel food from them.
No more fatties.

Bill: You're right.

John: Where do you go with it?! It goes on and on and on.

Bill: There's a lot of ways to kill yourself, you're right.

John: Two teaspoons full of salt, and you're dead.

John Cameron: You know, I mean, you have to draw the line, obviously --

Maggie: If you love someone, then you nag them about exercising and losing weight and being healthy.

[ Light laughter ]

You don't say "It's your personal choice to do whatever you want."

Bill: See? Nagging.
We're back to the marriage issue.
I gotta take a break, we'll be right back.

[ Applause ]

Announcer: Join us tomorrow when are guests will be --
the who's Roger Daltrey.
From "Ebert & Roeper," Richard Roeper.
Comedian Jake Johannsen.
And from "Straight Talk," Pam Stenzel.

[ Applause ]

Bill: A mental patient in New York stripped down to his underwear and leapt into the gorilla exhibit at the Bronx Zoo yesterday.
The man said he meant no harm to the gorillas.
He was just hoping that one of them could explain to him the ending of the "Planet of the Apes" movie.

[ Laughter ]


[ Applause ]

All right, we were talking about Gil Scott-Heron.
And listen, speaking of unhealthy, co-dependent relationships, there is a very unhealthy co-dependent relationship going on right now in the United States, and it is between the Levys and the media.
This is sick.
These people --
I don't blame the parents.
You know, people who have a daughter missing will do anything.
But the press camps out on their lawn, hoping they'll say something.
And then they come out and say something and keep them there every day, because they think this is their best avenue of keeping the heat on, is to talk to the media.

John: Right, they're desperate for something to do, because, I mean, your daughter's missing.
You're going to be incredibly stressed out.
But it's gone wrong, hasn't it?

Bill: And I don't think anyone is being kind to these people by, at this point, indulging them this way with the press.
And I don't blame the mother for anything she says.
If it was your daughter, of course, you'd say crazy things, too.
But it's about time the media did something a little more --

Maggie: What, exercise some moral self-restraint?

Bill: A little more than what they're doing, like maybe play piano in a whorehouse.

[ Laughter ]

But it is.
It is a co-dependent relationship.
That is the very definition of a co-dependent relationship.
They need each other in a sick way.

Maggie: I'm not sure the media's role can be justified.
But I don't think it's necessarily sick on the part of the Levys.
I mean, they're doing what they can, which is not a whole lot.

Bill: Yes, but no one is saying to them --

Maggie: I mean, Gary Condit has still not gone before the police and taken a lie detector test.
I mean, they're trying as best they can to try to get what information they can.

John: No, I'm not blaming them for taking every avenue possible.

Maggie: You're saying it's sick of them.

John: I'm blaming the vultures that are lurking around, the flies.

Bill: But people wanna keep it going.
No one has the guts to say to them, "You know what? Stop." They're not gonna call up the National Guard.
And when someone is missing for this long --

Kevin: The press should pull back or the Levys should pull back.

[ Talking over each other ]

John: At least there's some investigating reporting, 'cause I've seen very little of that.
It's already just gossip mongering.

Kevin: They just come out and say, "My life is hell," waves and goes back inside.

Bill: Yes, I mean, they're there every single day.

Maggie: Right, and what is she supposed to do? There are these reporters camped out in her yard.
It's not like she's controls it.

Bill: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
I'm telling you it's co-dependent because they talk to them every day.
They do want them there because they feel the media is an avenue for them to put pressure on the rest of the world to find their daughter.
And the media's not gonna help them with that.
People are already doing whatever they can.
They're not gonna call out the National Guard.

Maggie: Well, they could get --

Bill: And I think it's crueler to exploit this.
It would be kinder to say, "Look, you know what, when someone's missing for this long, they're probably not coming back.
Stay in the house." The press go away.
What?

John Cameron: It's hard to say.
Are you gonna say that to her?

Bill: I just did say it.

Maggie: The problem is, there is a congressman here who has lied repeatedly and who did some weird, flaky things, like have his own private lie detector test and release it instead of meeting with the police.

Bill: But it's not really about him.

Maggie: But yes, it is.
I mean, this is the one thing they are clearly trying to do, which is to get Gary Condit.

Bill: You want it to be about him because he's an adulterer.
But it's probably not really about him.

Maggie: Oh, we don't know who this is about.
But that's the only lead they have, and so they're pursuing it as aggressively as they can.
And his behavior has been very --

John: --
Face on a milk carton, but it's not really getting anywhere.

Kevin: I think it's a mutually exploitive situation.
And let me illustrate with an analogy.

[ Light laughter ]

Bill: Hurry up.

Kevin: I lost my dog, and for a week, I exploited my friends with flyers all over the place.
And their interest lasted about a week.
Now if my dog had been banging, like, a senator's dog, I'm sure that it would have gone to two or three weeks, but it didn't.
Moral of the story, I found my dog.

Bill: I've lost a dog, too, and I understand.
Oh, boy, do I.
You're right.
I've gotta take a commercial.

[ Applause ]


[ Applause ]

Bill: Tomorrow, Roger Daltrey, Richard Roeper, Jake Johannsen and Pam Stenzel.
Better Than Ezra, good stuff.
And "Hedwig."
[ Applause ]