Ben Is Dead zine

September 2nd, 1995

Issue No. 25

Hello! It's really great to talk to you. I'm a huge fan.
Huge? Does that mean you're big and fat?

Yes, it does. Okay, uh... let me see... Have you seen Ben is Dead before?
Who?

Have you seen Ben is Dead before?
No, I haven't.

It's a weird name, isn't it?
Not really.

Okay. (Laughs nervously) Okay, this is our retro issue, so it's really good timing for us that you're now talking about...
(Horrified) Retro?

It's retro, yes... So it's good timing for us that you're just now talking about your past for the first time in a long while. You're obviously not a sentimental person, but is there anything that you get nostalgic or sappy about?
Just people. Not objects, or false memories, just people. I've never been possessive about property or things, you know. I mean, I know a lot of people who fall in love with cars and things, but that's not for me.

Why do you think that people stay focused on the past so much?
Because they're scared of the future. They can hardly deal with the present. I think now more so than ever life is extremely difficult. Certainly much more complicated than it's ever been in the history of mankind. Quite frankly we're bombarding ourselves with unnecessary information... Life was so simple when it was just the big cruel land owner and you suffering underneath. Now there's a million juxtapositions of that. It's a mine field out there.

Yeah. Do you think that your book [Rotten: No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs] is going to be pretty much you last word on the subject of the Sex Pistols?
I wouldn't think so. I'm sure that there's a whole bunch of people now who've started to contradict me, or whatever, and have still got their own vested interest in it. I mean the people who I've listened to talk nonsense for the last 17 years are still out there doing it, only now they've got something rather than some vague idea in mind, they can actually focus on me. Which is fine. (Laughs)

Yeah, um... I wanted to ask some questions about back in those days... part of the Sex Pistols myth is that you left the band because of the publicity that Sid Vicious was getting...
Now, I don't know where such a thing could've ever come from.

Really
I don't care, let's put it that way. People that write things like that and want to believe things like that are really rather stupid. I mean, if I was jealous of that, I'm the only one who went on to do anything of any value, and I think that that must be noted.

Yeah, I was going to ask what you though of the music that the other guys in the band done since...
They haven't done anything.

Yeah, it sounds like you've sort've already answered my question.
I merely point out, Sid was the man I... I brought him in. He was my friend.

If he'd survived, what do you think he'd be doing these days?
Well, he had an awful ego problem to get over, and the fact that he didn't manage to overcome that I think stands for itself. What I find appalling, and a lot of people don't like to hear this, is how disgraceful it is that this whole drug culture seems to have been built around him. There are bands out there that look up to that and think that's great, fab, groovy, and that death is the only conclusion. There's nothing great about that. If people want real decadence, it's probably me. (Laughter) I intend to live for as long as is humanly possible. I want as much of this life as I can get. I want all of it, and I certainly don't intend to cut anything short. I'll prolong the agony.

(Laughs) Yeah, uh, in your book you talk about trying to murder, or at least greatly harm Nancy Spungen by...
I wasn't trying to murder her. (Laughs) I didn't realize the end results of picking your fingernails in someone's hypodermic... I mean, I could've given myself AIDS, you don't know. I just felt [heroin] was a filthy habit, and should be treated accordingly. To be dependent on someone else's supply of something you don't necessarily need is a rather stupid way of running you life.

There are some fans who feel that Sid didn't actually kill Nancy. Do you think there's any chance that's true?
(Voice building in intensity) Some fans don't know what they're talking about, and until all the evidence is in I really don't think it's worth commenting. I don't know. And he was my friends, and I don't know, and the rest is hearsay.

Yeah, well... Uh, you're obviously no fan of the movie Sid and Nancy or The Great Rock and Roll Swindle, so I was wondering, if there ever is a definitive Sex Pistols movie, what you thought it should be.
It would probably be the documentary that we're putting together now.

Oh, I hadn't heard about that.
Well, you're hearing it now.

Who's doing that? Who's behind it?
Well, seeing as we won the court case [against Pistols manager Malcolm MacLaren] we opened up the vaults and found that there was something like 600 hours of footage, most of it unreleased. Practically everything we ever did... and a lot of personal interviews, a lot of stuff that never actually got on TV because of TV company prejudice. So, uh, I'm trying to knock that into one and a half hours, no more, because I don't want this to be like a Bruce Springsteen concert... you know, on an on, ad infinitum. Just short, sharp and sweet. And I think that that will be the definitive Pistols film. No talking heads, it will just run chronologically.

You made a movie a couple of years ago with Harvey Keitel, but as far as I know you haven't made another one since then...
Well, I didn't like the process.

No? What do you think of how the actual movie came out?
Hilarious.

Oh, so you were pleased with the work you did?
I thought I was the most unconceited conceited person in the movie business. (Laughs) I really didn't give a damn about my best side or my profile, and that's the fun of roles like that. You can just be horrible. It was good fun, but I suppose anyone can be that nasty. (Stagey voice) It was acting! I am an act-or!

You don't really say in the book if you think that the actor who played you in Sid and Nancy did a good job...
Well, I didn't think it was worth commenting, in my own book, about my life, on other people's pieces of work that are not really directly related to me, but I do see both those films as mere fantasy. I mean, they're like the Peter Pan version, really. But, uh, what did I think? I thought Gary Oldfield (sic) was stunning, with the little pieces of information that he was given. He was very accurate. And the girl who played Nancy was very real looking. I mean, they looked the part - they just didn't have enough to work with. And it's scandalous, really, that the people closest, or who knew those people the most, were never contacted.

Yeah, I just saw Sid and Nancy the other night and the thing that jumped out at me first was that the fellow who played you just really didn't sound like you.
No, or look like, or in any shape or form represent. And the thing with the Sid and Nancy characters was that I thought they just looked like postcards, you know, here's the clichéd image, and that's all you get. It's like trying to buy a house by just looking at a photo of the outside... you know, where's the content?

Your book doesn't really discuss your life since the Sex Pistols very much...
No, because that's another book. [The current] book was just part one for me. It'd be rather stupid to put in the PiL years, because quite frankly PiL is far from over, and most importantly, if you're putting a book out for the first time you don't want it to read like War and Peace and need a wheelbarrow to carry it home.

(Laughs) Yeah. You discuss in the book being nick-named Johnny Rotten because you had horrible unbrushed teeth, and I was wondering, how your teeth are now? Do you brush?
They're the same.

(Laughs) The same? You still don't brush?
The only ones that are white are the one that are plastic. They have to be screwed in... some are bolted in. I've got a mouth full of metal, you know. There's not one real tooth in there, I'm all fillings.

Don't you ever worry about ending up just a toothless old Sex Pistol in you later life?
I'm not a Sex Pistol.

Well, a former Sex Pistol.
(Bitterly) And I don't give a fuck about teeth. It's all vanity. You Americans and your vanity.

We do love our teeth.
But you all look so weird! Square-jawed... silly!

(Nervously) Yeah, well... We may be fat and square-jawed, but we're proud of our teeth.
Well, whatever is left of my teeth the alcohol takes care of, so there's not much pain.

Yeah, uh, I was gonna ask... Your wife being considerable older than you are, what is the connection, the thing that really draws you two together?
Sex. Next.

Okay, uh, one more question about your wife... When she's 70, you're still going to be a fairly young man...
There's not that much of an age difference between us. What are you talking about?

I understand that there is about a 20 year difference.
Well, your understanding is quite wrong.

Oh. (Laughs) My reading comprehension must not be too great.
No, it's not your personal fault, it's media manipulation.

I see... Uh, you generally don't sound as pissed-off as you used to... I was wondering what...
Look, I'm not browbeating, but quite frankly I'm not going to waste any energy or skip a heartbeat over the bullshit that's gonna be written about me.

Sure.
It's just not worth it. It's so extreme and so excessive and so unreasonable, a lot of it, that it just doesn't matter very much.

Do you think all the years of dealing with that stuff have mellowed you out?
I just think that people are unreasonable. (Laughter) And narrow-minded, and locked into things that just aren't true. America just seems to be stuck in this chat-show format, where you shouldn't marry older people, you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that, you should have kids by now... It's bollocks! You should mind your own business! That should be the only rule.

Yeah. Uh... Let me see. How do you feel about being immortalized in wax at Madame Toussaud's Wax Museum in London?
I'd love to be immortal.

Well, the wax is immortal, at least.
No, that can be disintegrated very easily.

So it's not a great honor?
No, I wouldn't think so. It's just a fucking big candle, isn't it? (Laughter) Where's the privilege in that? I'm sorry, but I have no time for award collections. Once you get into that, you get into competing, and you've lost the point and purpose of why you should really be doing all this. It's true you do it because you've undisciplined and you can't work nine to five, but also because you love what you're doing. And I do, and I don't need to follow anybody's rules, and I certainly don't need to compete, which is the worst rule of the lot.

In recent years you've worked with some odd combinations of musicians, including Edie Brickell, and I understand you toured with INXS. I was wondering if you liked their music at all...
No. It had nothing to do with that. People are people. You know, if you can get on alright with the people then that's fine, you don't have to like what they do for a job, it's not about that. You can't be fascistic about your attitudes towards music at all, because it's a personal thing... and without verying differences, and extreme differences in most cases, thank you, it would all be rather pointless. Because as much as something stands by itself, it's when it's compared to something else that it really takes on a value. That's the whole point of all of theis.

But I was surprised to see the contributions in you book by Billy Idol, because if memory serves, I seem to recall your saying some very unflattering thing about his music a few years ago...
Yeah, so? We're mates, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter nothing. I'm sorry, but, you know, the man is an adult. It doesn't matter nothing to him. And why should it? If i'm asked for an honest opinion on something I'll give it, and it's never a personal attack. I don't go in for that stuff. You never get me going on about people's big noses or their hunchbacks, or the gamy legs, or anything like that. It's not my style. It's just really, really unfortunate that a lot of people in this industry are rather childish and take it as such.

Yeah. Over the last few years, PiL has gotten a lot more radio-friendly. They started off very abrasive and kind of deliberately unmusical...
They? They?

Sorry, you and the boys.
Frankly, I've gotten rather bored with the way PiL's been going the last couple of years, because I think it's not us that've changed, it's just alternative music [has] sort've caught up.

Really? Because if you listen to...
If I listen to practically anything on alternative radio I can hear a Public Image influence, spanning some ten albums, all incredibly different from each other. But quite frankly, for a year now, I'd rather make a solo record, and then go back to PiL, which is what we're all doing. Dusting out some cobwebs, as they say.

I was curious how much of PiL's actual music you write, because you don't really allot credit to who did what in your liner notes...
Does it really matter?

I suppose not. (Laughter)
Because it doesn't matter to us. I'm not going to be running across stage waving flash guitars and flashing tambourines to prove what a muse-o I am. As I've always declared, Public Image has never been about music... ever. We're noise structuralists, and the fact that you can remember how to bang a thing in a certain sequence makes it musical, but it does not make you a musician. Musicians are dreadful. They end up playing country and western. That's musicians, something that has no soul.

What are some things that you're into that you think would surprise people?
Uh... Ladies underwear.

(Laughs) Are you a great reader?
I read. You have to. There's so much disinformation out there, you've got to try and work something out for yourself. Because, quite frankly, books are other people's ideas, and the more of other people's ideas you absorb the greather chance you have of working out you own.

I was surprised in the book when you said you were a Doors fan at one time. It just didn't fit with the kind of music that you do...
It doesn't matter. You don't have to imitate all your favorite records.

Who would you say is the worst band in the world right now?
Uhh... (Blows a contemplative raspberry) Spoilt for choice, really. I don't know. I don't care. It's probably one of those posturing grunge bands. It's probably U2, actually.

I've heard a lot of people compare their early records to PiL... I don't hear the resemblance, myself.
Yeah. It's mostly the guitar and the extended play... All of that, really, comes from PiL.

Some people have said that rap was the next wave after punk, and I was wondering what you thought of rap?
The next wave of what? (Thinks better of it) Oh, no, no, no... Not interested. I don't like fashion trends, and I particularly don't like it wen people proclaim it as art or culture, because it isn't. Nothing in pop music is culture, because it separates us. How can it be culture, because culture is all about uniting people, and rap certainly doesn't... because I'm rather bored, seeing as how it originated and what it's become now, listening to black guys say white people shouldn't listen to or make rap music. I find that just disgusting. Who the fuck died and made them God? Apart from anything it's a rather ignorant, naive view of how rap began anyway. And I've no doubt that that will make me a thousand enemies, but I have many opinions that are truthful. Grunge! I mean, what is that, really? They claim it strums like the Sex Pistols and punk... Bollocks! If it's related to anything, it's to all those horrid hippie bands from England. It's more along the lines of Deep Purple and Black Sabbath... and because they're such wankers, there's too much of the fucking Eagles thrown in for good measure. There's no content, they're not singing about anything. It's pointless. And it's divisionalism, it's just all about separating people. You know, madly, happily, willingly accepting categories. It's insane. I mean, they are the problem. That's why there are wars, with attitudes like that. Because it goes all the way down the line... The Us vs. Them theory.

Yeah. Uh, in the last ten years or so a lot of Sex Pistols songs have been covered, and I was wondering if there are any that you feel stand out?
Nope.

Nope? NOt a one, eh? (Awkward pause) Okay.
No, I mean as long as the check's in the post, I don't give a toss. There's nothing precious about it. Anyone's more than welcome to do a version, if they deem it necessary. But I must say that if we were viewed as a so-called amateur band way back then, I've not heard anyone do it better. And it was a complete miss and a lot of bullshit that we couldn't play, it was just something that we never bothered to dispute. But you must understand at the time of the Sex Pistols that we were far younger than any band out there. It was much like putting the Bay City Rollers on the smae stage as the Grateful Dead and expecting them to both play similarly. Or at least expecting both be as musically competent, if you view the Grateful Dead as competent in any shape or form. But you get my point. They were just jealous, because we had an attitude, and that really came from nothing that those people could connect to. They just couldn't understand it.

I've heard every now and then about the possibility of a Sex Pistols reunion. Do you think that could ever happen?
No. It will not happen. I have stated this, and that's all there is to it. It's not an issue for debate. And anyone who believes otherwise is fooling themselves. (Blows nose violently)

Oh, do you have a cold?
Yes, I do. (Miserably) Otherwise it might be the air out here.

Oh. Sorry. Well, uh, I saw a beer ad you did a couple of years ago. Have you done other ads as well?
No.

No. Well, I was wondering how you feel about doing advertising.
I accept the money gleefully. I hardly think the world ran out and bought Shlitz. (Laughs) Nobody cares! It's just easy money. It's a tax loss for the company, I suppose, and it's easy money for me. I wouldn't mind Camel cigarettes supporting my tour, or Marlboro, or anybody else. I don't care if there's death in those packets, nobody's twisting your arm to smoke them. (Blows nose even more loudly)

Would you allow any Sex Pistols songs to used in a commercial?
Uhhh... If it wasn't a joke. I'd allow that, but not as a form of abuse, you know, like a mockery. I really couldn't imagine Anarchy Jeans. It'll never happen.

Since the Sex Pistols broke up, and Malcolm MacLaren started doing his own music...
Has he?

(Laughs) I was wondering if he's done anything that you've actually liked at all?
(Blows nose sharply. Long, dreadful pause) I've got nothing to talk about with him. Nothing.

Really? So you don't think...
Next.

Ah. I see, well, we heard that you have a private gym that you take on tour...
(Laughs delightedly) What, you mean Jim the guitar roadie? Where do you hear these things? I think you just make them up and hope that you hit gold.

Actually, I heard it from my editor, but...
Well, tell her she's a liar. As I've been saying for years, muscles are things you hire. You never have them attached to your own body, because they tend to turn to fat... (Sneezes) when you're not looking.

We were wondering if you have any bald spots from all those years of dyeing your hair...
No.

No? Because I peroxided my hair just once, and it fell out in clumps the next day.
Well, you must have done it wrong.

Oh, I'm sure I did. But the reason I ask is that I heard a rumor that, uh, you occasionally wear a toupee.
(Bursts into laughter) Ahh... Yipee!

So it's completely false?
Any toupee is completely false. That's frankly obvious.

Well, uh, that's pretty much the end of my questions...
Yeah, well, I can tell where your article's going...

And where might that be?
You know, smart-ass, derogatory.

Well, that is sort of the tone of the magazine, but I do have to say, I really am a fan, and if I came across as being rude, that really wasn't my intention...
No, no, no... You haven't come across as rude yet, but I'm damn sure what you write will be.

Well, it will probably just be a transcription of what you've said, so, I think you'll be pretty pleased with it.
I doubt that.

(Blithely) Okay. So; yeah thanks again, and thanks for a lot of great music.
There's more to come. Bye-bye, Ben.